Community Council/Meetings/Third/Motion to add the extension for embedding 3rd party media

Background

As per discussion and links on Guidelines for embedding links to third party media

Draft concepts for motion

• Based on Straw Dog 1

Motion

Wikieducator will install the Widgets extension that enables embedding of 3rd party media. Wikieducator will extend its policies to instruct its users that any media being embedded must have appropriate copyrights. A volunteer working party will be set up to monitor media being embedded, and support the creation of free and open format derivatives of the media being used. Copyright and similar meta data will be managed the same way that media files are currently managed on Wikieducator - with templates and media pages. Should this motion see a majority disapproving or abstaining, a working group will be set up to develop a proposal for implementation by next Council Meeting. Leighblackall 07:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

This motion is out of order. There is currently a motion on the table dealing with the same and/or similar substantive issues In addition: A motion demanding WikiEducator to install the Widgets extension seems illogical when the widget extension was installed prior to this meeting to test the practical implications of embedding 3rd party media. The functioning of the widget was demonstrated during the the meeting. WikiEducator policies already require that all content must carry copyright licenses which meet the free cultural works definition. The motion currently on the table is attempting to explore the terms of reference for a "working party" / Workgroup to work out the implementation processes for integrating rich media. Currently, it is not technically possible to manage the metadata in the same way as media files are managed on WikiEducator because the media file in this scenario would not reside on the WikiEducator servers. Therefore a technical investigation is required to determine how this could be implemented. WikiEducator is not saying no to rich media -- this is the reason the item was formerly approved as an agenda item for this meeting. Essentially the debate on the table is not one against linking to FLV or MP3 files, it is a discussion of finding the best solution to ensure that a free format version of the same file will be available for download so we don't exclude users who choose to use free software. Ideally, this should occur at the point that the media is linked and we need to investigate the technical and cost implications to achieve this goal. --Wayne Mackintosh 20:11, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Comments from Leigh with reference to ruling the motion out of order Not so, only the discussion of that motion deals with similar issues. This motion was tabled based on a "Straw Dog" development as you call it, and is tabled as a motion different to that. Leighblackall 22:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC) Procedurally a meeting cannot debate two motions covering the same or similar issues simultaneously --- therefore this motion is not in the right order (sequence) hence "out of order". --Wayne Mackintosh 22:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC) In addition: A motion demanding WikiEducator to install the Widgets extension seems illogical when the widget extension was installed prior to this meeting to test the practical implications of embedding 3rd party media. The functioning of the widget was demonstrated during the the meeting. The Widgets Extension has limits on its functionality compared to the full range of functions it could have. Leighblackall 22:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC) WikiEducator policies already require that all content must carry copyright licenses which meet the free cultural works definition. With regard to copyrights, nothing here changes that! Leighblackall 22:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC) The motion currently on the table is attempting to explore the terms of reference for a "working party" / Workgroup to work out the implementation processes for integrating rich media. That working party suggestion did not reflect the majority wishes as indicated by the "lazy concensus". It was a suggestion by you Wayne, the chair. It was an out of order suggestion considering you had already asked that alternative motions be developed through "lazy dog". It seems to me you are simply defusing the energy yet again, sending it out to sub pages while you make an entirely new suggestion that represents the concerns of one, maybe 2 others. Leighblackall 22:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC) In terms of meeting procedure, it is not out of order for the Chair to suggest a motion by saying "I entertain a motion". It is up to the meeting to decided whether someone formerly tables and seconds the motion. --Wayne Mackintosh 22:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC) Currently, it is not technically possible to manage the metadata in the same way as media files are managed on WikiEducator because the media file in this scenario would not reside on the WikiEducator servers. Therefore a technical investigation is required to determine how this could be implemented. Seriously!? The meta data page doesn't have to have the media in it! It could start as meta data for the link. When the derivative is created, the new version has a home. Leighblackall 22:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC) WikiEducator is not saying no to rich media -- this is the reason the item was formerly approved as an agenda item for this meeting. Wayne, YOU are saying no to embedding 3rd party media, and choosing which proprietary formats YOU will permit and what YOU want. YOU already permit MP3 and FLV, YOU already permit Kaltura and RSS... all of that IS what is being proposed. But for reasons that completely escape me, YOU say no to allowing people to drop embed code - forcing them to take a work around and embed it in Kaltura or RSS.Leighblackall 22:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC) Essentially the debate on the table is not one against linking to FLV or MP3 files, it is a discussion of finding the best solution to ensure that a free format version of the same file will be available for download so we don't exclude users who choose to use free software. Ideally, this should occur at the point that the media is linked and we need to investigate the technical and cost implications to achieve this goal. --Wayne Mackintosh 20:11, 8 May 2010 (UTC) Again, it is you and Kim only who say the free format version should happen at the same time. We've had MP3 and FLVs woth no free versions for years! Nothing stopping us from adding more MP3s and FLVs, or Kaltura, or RSS displays. The horse has already left the stable on that, so YOU might as well make it better now. Leighblackall 22:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC) Which is why I have apologised to the free software users. I will take responsibility for fixing the problem by providing a link to a free file format version of these MP3s and FLVs hosted on WE- --Wayne Mackintosh 22:36, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Second

A second is required to indicate that the motion should come before the meeting. The second should sign below. Seconding a motion does not necessarily indicate support of the motion, it is an agreement that the motion should come before the assemble. Voting can commences once a motion is before the meeting. At this point the chair will place the motion under the "Active: Please discuss and vote" section of the home page for the meeting.

• Nellie Deutsch 09:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

I see this issue as one of quite a few issues that test the democratic rhetoric of Wikieducator. The "lazy consensus poll" on the last motion indicated a majority here support embedding 3rd party media now, but the concerns of an obvious minority has caused that motion to stall. We all should realise that Wikieducator ALREADY supports the use of proprietary formats (MP3 and Flash on Help pages) and embedded 3rd party media (Kaltura and RSS). We all appreciate the importance and value of that media on WE, as we surely all appreciate the value that the plethora of multi media available on 3rd party sites potentially has to WE. Adding the Widgets extension enables people to bring that vast media library into WE, and would greatly enhance people's experiences with WE. Just look at the range of wonderful tools it supports! Developing a volunteer base and work flow (with eventual software) for making free format derivatives of that embedded media will fulfill concerns regarding "free cultural works". Adding multi media and creating free format derivatives would make WE the most significant OER MediaWiki project on the Internet. Rejecting the use of embedded 3rd party media on the basis of it being in proprietary formats not only belittles the points of educational betterment, it discriminates against all those who don't have the literacy, device or option to use those free formats. Suggesting that using third party media compromises the reliability of Wikieducator contradicts our trust in links, hypertext and indeed the online format! We might as well return to paper, or tablets for that matter. Wikieducator has no option but to offer proprietary AND free formats side by side if it wants as many people as possible to benefit from free learning enhanced by multi media. Faced with this, and the fact that WE already supports proprietary and embedded 3rd party media, it is obvious that WE should have enabled this enhancement a long time ago, and so should take this step now. Leighblackall 07:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

• As I stated before, I would not have been able to reach my online and face-to-face students had I not used Bliptv and Kaltura (Youtube) on WikiEducator. --Nellie Deutsch 09:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

No,sorry, Leigh, Nellie and Peter, for me this comes too quick. I understand your impatience, as with your experience with media you are light-years ahead of me, but I need more time to get acquainted with the issue and therefore propose to adjourn the decision at least until our next meeting.
BTW, I think a motion should not contain a logic like: "Should this motion see a majority disapproving or abstaining ... ", because if the motion is disapproved, this statement is disapproved too. Günther Osswald 16:16, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

This motion, the ability to embed 3rd party media, support for proprietary formats, is really not the issue here - we can already do all those things in round about ways. While I'm surprised to see your comment Günther (I seemed to have missed your comments on this issue elsewhere), the closure of this motion, and the conduct of the last, really confirms to me that Wikieducator is governed by a benevolent dictatorship. The Council, this voting process, working parties, policies, are really just ceremonial events to satisfy public image and collect 'evidence' for funding. I am quite sorry for my part in it. From Liquid Threads, Kaltura, RSS, and even the half install of the Widgets extension, right through to how the budget is managed, we all know it goes by the say so of one person, who takes advice from an unelected shadow "executive committee". This last effort on my part tried to test that, giving a benefit of the doubt. I know the dictator has Wikieducator's best interests at heart, but ends never justify the means. Despite the governance issues, Wikieducator is a significant project, and is certainly helping to build education sector awareness on the issues and limitations of free and open source media. For me, I'd rather work under such limitations via the Wikimedia Foundation and its Wikiversity project, playing a relatively low key role. In that regard Wikieducator has no significant point of difference.. which is a worry. All the best everyone Leighblackall 22:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Assertions that the management and budget of the OER Foundation are controlled by one person are totally unfounded and borderline trolling. The OER Foundation's strategic and operational plans, budget etc are developed transparently and openly in the wiki for all to see. The budget and expenditure is approved by standard corporate business practice. The OERF is registered with the NZ Charities Commission, and is subject to the normal financial control procedures, reporting and auditing procedures required by law. --Wayne Mackintosh 02:41, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Vote

Approval

• Peter Rawsthorne 14:00, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
• Leighblackall 22:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Disapproval

• Günther Osswald 16:14, 8 May 2010 (UTC)